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This is the Nugget Tiny House on Wheels.
It’s a 102 sq. ft. microhouse built on a 12 ft. trailer by Modern Tiny Living.
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The Nugget: A 12-ft. Tiny House on Wheels!
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Photos via Modern Tiny Living
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Photos via Modern Tiny Living
Video Tour – The Nugget Tiny House
Highlights
- 102 sq. ft.
- 1 bathroom
- 12 ft. trailer
- Off-grid capabilities
- Solar panels
- Available for $36,000
Quote
Modern Tiny Living is proud to present the Nugget, our very first micro home! Outfitted with complete off-grid capability, the Nugget is the most livable 12 foot home on the market.1
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Alex
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For $36,000?
Good luck, fellas.
Nick, perhaps but lets compare…
A 2017 Airstream Basecamp, which is around this size, would cost you up to around $47,000, for comparison… But this is more comfortable, is actually insulated rather than having metal walls, has better solar and water tank capacity, actual shower stall instead of wet bath, and a lot more storage…
You could find something cheaper, for sure, but it’s unlikely to be as nice, forcing you to make compromises with things like a loft instead of a first level bed, and as comfortable unless you build it yourself and use reclaimed materials to help keep costs low…
Not for everyone for sure, but it’s not bad for what it offers and those who that will cater to may think it’s worth it…
Thanks James 🙂
Yes, let’s compare:
20′ build @ 36K = 1800/ft
12′ build @ 36K = 3000/ft
This is very nice, no doubt, but WAY over priced. This build should be coming in around 22K. Yes, yes. We’ve heard all of the rationales ad nauseum about why this is and why it should be, and yes, the seller is free to request whatever price point he desires, BUT… if builders expect top dollars every time they have a product to sell without considering the context of their target market, then don’t expect a stampede any time soon. We, the People, are just keeping it real.
Evening Iris, no… First, you’re math is off because it’s square footage and not just one measurement of length… at 102 Sq Ft this is only about $353 per sq ft…
Second, cost per square foot increases as you go smaller for various reasons from it requiring more work as ever smaller spaces require more careful engineering to do right and because you’re squeezing most of the same things into a smaller space but those things still mostly cost the same to provide, they’re just packed into a smaller space… So sq ft comparison can be misleading when comparing difference size structures with different layouts, engineering, designs, appliances, fixtures, etc.
You’re also ignoring what’s actually in this model… Like the solar and water tank… Things like Off-grid functionality is extra costs… Houses normally don’t come with off-grid functionality and the equipment required to provide that function aren’t free!
You’re free to get something cheaper that won’t provide off-grid functionality, just realize the trade offs… Most structures this size won’t even give you three inches of closed cell insulation on the side walls like this one does as most are trying to maximize how much internal space is available and thus usually settle for just two inches of insulation…
Really, while this is a little high for the size but there are houses even higher… Like there’s one that was a DIY build in California that ended up at $160,000 or just under $700 per sq ft… Because the owner wanted everything hand crafted by artisans, imported environmentally friendly products, too years to store the products before the build, the battery he got for the solar is just under $10,000 all by itself, had an architect help with the design, and used high end hardware.
But that’s still cheap compared to the custom build for the rich that can go over $2000 per sq ft… Like Will Smith’s $2.5 million RV trailer…
Needless to say, costs aren’t limited to just size and what may be readily visible in some photos as you can’t see things like the solar, the 4 sets of batteries to store power, the 100 gallon water tank, or how much work they actually put into the construction with things like how much insulation it actually has, etc.
Iris, don’t even attempt to argue with this person. You are not even allowed an opinion without his commenting. Not sure if he is a moderator or what but …he always gets the last word and knows every single fact and statistic. I personally agree with your logic and even if I didn’t, I would read it and not feel compeloed to attempt to correct you!
I was thinking more like $2,500.00, it’s a glorified dog house.
@Lance B. – No, you wouldn’t get anything like this for $2,500.00 Dog houses aren’t insulated, let alone enough to handle even a Canadian winter, come with solar power, 100 gallon water tank, allow you to live off-grid, aren’t built to last over 50 years, come with kitchen and bathroom, etc…
But you might be able to get a little basic camper for that much…
I agree with you. The price is way too high. !8,000.00 for this you be a better price. No where really to hang any clothes. Should have put in a small loft with dormer for storage.
Maria, you’re not going to have hanging storage unless you give up the bed… This model doesn’t go to the full height and it’s only 12 feet long for only 102 sq ft, which is smaller than most Tiny Houses.
What they did put in was surround shelving all around the interior and the bed has storage underneath in addition to a pull drawer.
For price, you’re also not going to find something with 3″ of spray foam insulation for $8000, that’s going way too far in the other direction of costs…
You can maybe find something like this for around $16,000 to $24,000 but it may not look as nice and like I pointed out there’s things this size that are priced even higher that aren’t even custom made…
You don’t have to give up the bed, just those floating shelves. No one ever said a hanging closet had to be positioned on the floor. A very nice wall cupboard would do. For me, there should be drawers under the bed for clothing and bed clothing, and that wall free of floating shelves so I could hang up my guitar collection.
Evening Iris, the bed already has a drawer and storage compartment…
While I don’t think you realize how little space there is around the bed… Even a small cupboard closet will have to hang right over the bed, which means the person sleeping has a much higher chance of hitting it every time they get in or out of bed…
It would be fine if the ceiling was a little higher and this could actually have a storage loft or over hanging closets but it’s a little close for comfort in this design, IMO…
More practical would be a simple hanging bar and curtain to cover it… That way, even if you hit it that it won’t hurt… But can still make the space feel more claustrophobic…
But someone can always specify in their own custom build that the roof be a little higher or cantilevered out the back a little to provide a closet space just behind the bed… or just extend that utility shed on the outside to full height and use the upper part to place a closet… add a pull out hanging rod that can slide over the bed should give easy access but stores out of the way the rest of the time…
James I meant to say 18,000 for this. I know a builder who can build this for 18,000.00.
Maria, might be a good deal then… Depending on the quality of the work and whether they can still give you equivalent features or not…
It was typed wrong should have read $ 18,000.00. I have been in this model.
Hi Maria,
We hear you about the price, and if we could build a $18k Nugget with full-solar, batteries, water holding tank, full bathroom (Composting Toilet and 30 x 30 shower), Trailer Made Trailer, fully insulated, architect designed – we definitely would 🙂
Everyone has different tastes and priorities though when going tiny.
This was built to spec for the owner, and she is thrilled with her home!
– MTL Team
I don’t need one that is off the grid. Thank you for responding. I will keep your company in mind for building my Tiny home.
The old Tumbleweed is only 89 square feet is much more livable, with a small living room, a desk, a kitchen, a bathroom, a nice closet, bookshelves and a loft bed.
That’s the old Tumbleweed EPU – Jay Shaffer’s very first tiny house.
Hey Nick,
We can build a Nugget for less than $36k for sure, but since this one is completely off-the-grid (panels + batteries, water holding tank, etc.), built on a Trailer Made trailer, and has a full bathroom (composting toilet + 30 x 30 shower), this is about the best we can do 🙂
Thanks for commenting!
I agree. I don’t feel the debate on the comparable cost of an airstream flies, either. Ridiculous is ridiculous cost.
@Francine Rico – You are of course free to consider it however you wish. My points aren’t to convince you that it’s worth buying, as that’s entirely up to you. Only explaining why it cost what it does and what factors contribute to that price.
Simply put, what you can get for significantly less will not be built as well or have all the features this one does. It doesn’t mean you can’t get anything for less, as indeed you can, but rather simply pointing out that it won’t be equivalent.
The builder even stated that they can build something for less, it just won’t have everything this one does, and whether that matters is determined by what you actually need and what it’ll take to provide it but that can be less than this provides.
Fact is there are always trade offs and appearances doesn’t mean something is equivalent to something else as there can be a lot different in how it was built and what was put into it. I point this out so people not only understand how the costs work but can then know how to control the costs and still end up with what they want to end up with in the end…
Any product, you should be aware of the details because that is what really determines whether you’re getting a good deal or a bad one for the price. Failure to do so only leaves you open to risk of purchasing something that won’t meet your needs and may even hurt you. Like buying a lemon, just because something is cheaper doesn’t mean it’s the one you should actually get but you’d only know that by looking at and understanding the details of how it was built and what was put into it…
Similarly, something that cost more doesn’t mean it’s always better as the reasons it cost more may be either something that doesn’t apply to you and your needs or was done wastefully and you could have a builder do it differently to get it to a better price then… But again, that’s only possible when you know know and understand the details, which is the actual point I’ve been making all along…
No stove or indoor cooking facilities? What about the bathroom?
Anna pruett, it’s only 102 sq ft on a 12′ trailer… So not really enough space for dedicated appliances but you can have a one/two burner you can have stored in one of the cabinets or on a shelf until needed.
This is a custom builder, so anything about it can be changed as well…
On their web page for this model, it shows the bathroom is opposite the kitchen, with pocket door access, and has a 30″ x 30″ shower stall and a composting toilet…
There are things I would recommend changing about the design, especially for the given starting asking price, but it’s an otherwise well made model and some would like the appeal of something that weighs only 4500 lbs, for easy towing, and has an actual bed they don’t have to climb to reach…
Though, DIY or companies like Incredible Tiny Homes can do it for less… If you don’t mind applying some sweat equity…
Hi Anna,
There is a little cooktop the owner uses for this one. Bathroom is full, with Nature’s Head Composting Toilet and 30 x 30 in. shower 🙂
– MTL
Pretty, Pretty, Bonbon. White Sweetly Integrated
Lots of pics, but I would have liked to see the shower. I like small. Don’t need a big stove. A little countertop hot plate works fine, and it’s out of sight when not in use. If you want a turkey, go visit mom.
Ray, more pictures on builder’s web site… 3-4 on the bathroom…
Ray, the owner of this has a little 2-burner plug-in cooktop she uses 🙂 Well done!
Nice little cabin on wheels. Simple but has everything needed for a cabin in the bush or by the water. I think one person or a couple can easily build something like this for about $6000 in material, depending on where it sourced. So I guess the seller is looking for $30000 in profit?
However cleaver and cute it is, I don’t see $350 per sq/ft there. Believe me I’m trying to justify the price but I just can’t.
Having said that, neat set up and easy build for just about anyone who can operate a tape measure, saw and hammer.
Van, it’s at least a couple thousand just for the solar, which has 4 batteries, another couple thousand for the trailer… Among other premium features… So, nope… profit would be a lot less than $30,000…
👍
With a microwave, some upper cabinets and a couple of burners, you could do some real cooking. I would also hope for a sofa bed instead of the big bed, possibly with storage under as it would make it feel more roomy and also allow for flip up, flip down table top/s so there is a place to eat, too. Some hooks for clothes, things stored over the bathroom, and it could mostly work for one, two if very temporary. Really attractive.
Thanks Wendy!
Sweet!
James D. Let’s compare. The airstream is considerable more. However, there is a lot to be said for name recognition. RVs, and travel trailers depreciate in value but Airstreams in general hold their value better. So the real comparison should be made in a year or two to see what the market bears for either of the examples.
I’m sure that there are buyers for this out there somewhere, wish the builder luck, but I’m having problem with cost to value ratio.
I love Tiny houses, there are many great examples of them here, this one is very cleaver for its size. The problem I have is that since I’ve been following the trend in tiny houses, we are moving away from the original idea of sustainable, simple mortgage free living. Lots of lovely eye candy here, many are even attainable foxy the people with modest means, but I see that the trend is going toward the “small but trandy”.
I’m truly concerned that this great idea of simple living with small footprint on our environment will price itself into a fad that will go away because it will become way too expensive
Van, don’t fear… Widening market is a good thing because it means everyone gets more options and it allows for cheaper options to become available because the builders and product makers aren’t constrained by such tight margins that they have to charge everyone the same…
Instead, those who want a lot then pay a lot and those who want less pay less… Thus it works for everyone…
As for name recognition… It doesn’t change you can’t have a Airstream custom built for you at this price, or the fact the Airstream is basically a metal box with little to no insulation… Vs this which has 3 inches of closed cell spray foam insulation…
You’ll get your money back just by how much less heating and cooling this will require over the years and you don’t have to schedule where you travel to by whether the weather is good all the time or not where you’re going… and you have more storage and this can work off-grid/boondock much longer than the Airstream can…
While holding value is when you compare to other RV’s… Tiny Houses are better built and will last longer before needing repairs and maintenance. So they will actually hold value longer, not counting collectors that’ll be wild cards on how much you can sell it later for but that’s no guarantee even for Airstreams…
So ask yourself, what’s more important… Name recognition or getting the best experience possible out of the product?
Correction it’s not foxy, it suppose to be…attainable BY the people….
You can try to rationalize it any way you’d like to, but with tiny house pricing… good luck trying to get that kind of money!
Michael L, it’s a smaller market for those selling at higher prices but there’s still plenty of people spending even more than this for products that they can’t even get customized to their liking…
The appeal is for those middle class on up who can afford more than average but want something that can be completely custom made for them, which in the traditional market is usually reserved for products that can cost hundreds of thousands on up into the millions.
Hey Michael L…. seems like they got the money… (gasp) right from the start. It was custom made for the customer… /smh
A perfect little bunkie.
No it isn’t… see: http://www.thebunkie.com rg&dfc
Very interesting. I realize there is not a lot of room in this design, but it has the basics I’m looking for. To do 102 sqft, you need to make some compromises. Paired with my shed/garage, this may be a winner!
Thanks Brad!
I like it, lots of bright light and very compact. I used a convection toaster oven for 2 years to cook for 6 people it would work just fine on the counter top with a moveable hot plate stored on top. I don’t know if the roof line would allow it but I would love a murphy bed up against the wall where the shelves are now and then hang hammock chairs from the rafter. Then the hanging chairs can easily been pulled out of the way for the bed to go down. Maybe even a bench with storage under the window that the bed comes down on.
If it weren’t for my 6’7″ husband and four teenage sons I would love to live in it.
I love how homey and cozy it looks. Great job.
Thanks Jenn!
Hey Everyone,
Seen a lot of questions about the bathroom – you can see more photos of the bathroom at http://www.moderntinyliving.com/nugget.html.
For those asking, there is a stow-away 2-burner little stove the owner has in this unit that is included. Since counter space is at a premium, she doesn’t leave it out 🙂
For those concerned about the price, we definitely are aware that for this size, $36k is not cheap. However, we use the highest end solar setups, highest end trailer, Amish carpenters for the intricate design work, a roof with a 40 year warranty, siding with 50 year warranty, fully insulated, etc. It is built to last forever, and wasn’t built cheaply.
We can build a measurably less expensive version of the Nugget, but it would require sacrificing some of the off-grid components, etc.
We know everyone has a different reason for going tiny. This home was built to spec for its owner, who is using it as a very nice “camper-esque” home that can survive off-grid, rather than her full-time home.
Thanks for checking it out all!
– MTL Team
I LOVE this house! a couple of small tweeks and it would be perfect.
That is adorable !!! Not sure it would work for me and my 7 rescue Chihuahuas, but none the less it is precious !!!
It’s beautiful and a great build for someone out there, I’m sure. For a person like myself, where owning a conventional house will probably never happen, this is way out of my price & size range. I have been researching tiny and bus conversions for a few years and know that I can have my own with more square footage and built just as nice for under $30k. Looks great for a weekend getaway or trip for two across the states, but very few people would go this micro with no storage space for long.
Lisa, it’s micro for sure but it has a small amount of storage… The space underneath the bed is for storage and it has a drawer near the bottom… There’s multiple shelving on virtually every single wall… There’s wall hooks for hanging things… There’s the kitchen cabinets and drawers… and on the exterior there’s the utility shed on the rear side…
While since it’s custom, others can choose to have more storage… Like the rear window could be eliminated and the utility shed extended up to form a bump out that can be used as a closet/wardrobe that opens up behind the bed… among other possible changes…
Main thing is this can function for a long time off-grid… solar with multiple battery bank, large water tank, 3 inches of closed cell spray foam insulation for a very high R-Value, etc.
You can certainly do something like a bus conversion for less but it’s unlikely to offer the same off-grid functionality as this… But then again, this can’t move itself…
While, leaving out the off-grid functionality will certainly allow the price to be lowered substantially… The price they’re listing is just including those premium features but not everyone needs to be able to live off-grid, or needs to be able to handle extremely hot and cold weather, etc.
There are always trade offs and reasons why some things cost more and other things less. So it just matters what trade offs you can live with… So long as you’re happy with the end result then that’s all that matters…
Seem that most everyone, while they love the design, have problem justifying the price. Ok, so the quality difference between the travel trailers and “tiny houses” being mentioned for the purpose of justification.
Fair enough… it’s known that most RV are built at a low standard of quality. In reality, they were never intended to be lived in permanently, so the design is geared toward mobility. More “aero dynamic”(note quotation marks) compared to to tiny houses. But they are also lacking overhangs and sharp corners and and flat surfaces that create wind resistance that allows for increased loads on surfaces. The obvious effects are lowering of fuel efficiency of the towing vehicle, less obvious loads on the type of roof structure that never meant to be subjected to extended periods of hurricane force winds.
This example seem to want to cater to those who want to move it often, i.e. use it as a travel trailer. So time would tell how the roof would hold up to frequent towing at highway speeds. You have better chances of roof pulling away from the walls on this then a travel trailer. I live in South Florida and managed to go through about 8 tropical storms and hurricanes between Florida, Louisiana and the Caribbean, think Andrew, Katrina, Rita, and the two out of four Hurricanes that hit Florida in a row about a week apart back in 2004 if I recall correctly amongst others.
Anyway, so between the aero dynamics of a brick and the style of roof structure might tempers the idea of using it as an RV, unless it gets as much use as an average trailer. Few times a year.
If it meant to be more stationary unit, such as a guest room in the back yard or a bachelor pad for a single person to use as a crash pad in between travels for work assignments, then it’s not very efficient for the price.
Let’s see, off grid being mentioned. I have lived on a 30 foot sailboat more several years so I have an idea about self sufficiency and off grid. Back in 2006 I purchased 2 solar panels (Kyocera, no affiliation of any kind) 130 Watts each for just over $600. Prices have come down on panels since than. Purchased 4 group 31 deep cycle batteries for about $800, and charge controller for about $200. Keep in mind this is 2006 prices. So so with miscellaneous parts such as wiring and other hardware, let me be generous and call it 2 grand for the kit. So, I will over estimate material cost here, trailer, $2000, solar set up, $2000, material for building shell, including spray in foam insulation, (check out the kit in the orange big box store) and the 30×30” shower enclosure, $4000, that particular type of
composting toilet $1000, add up to about $9000. These are retail prices. No contractors pays those prices with a business license. So let’s take a $1000 off and I think I’m understate the price between wholesale and retail here, that ends up to be about $8000. Btw, I forgot the water tank and the black/gray water thank add about $500 so $8500. This still leaves about $27,500 for labour and profit for about 10-14 days of work for 2 people. I think I’m on the generous side of estimated time. That is about $3200 for salary for two people at 10 work days 8hours each. Ok let’s add and other $800 for over time, that $4000 total for labour at $20 per hour for the hired hands. So that bring it up to $12,500 profit.
I’m sure I’m missing adds and ends, but it is a good representation of the cost break down.
So, anyone who is handy, can shave off the cost by sourcing repurposed material, used trailer used solar panels and brings me back to what I said before. Anyone who can operate heavy equipments such as tape measure various types of saws, hammer, screw drivers, and pliers and some wrenches can probably build this for around $6-8000. Including reused windows door and very basic plumbing in case someone may think that I forgot.
So, all I’m saying, that I can appreciate the efforts of this builder, but that size of construction for something that’s not really a tiny house and not the most ideal RV is not the most ideal business model.
On a different note, this, just as all the above, is a personal opinion, the idea of the tiny house is not focused on mobility as much as it is designed to get around some codes to be able to produce reasonable and more than adequate housing for people who are interested in redifining what quality life is about. That is not focused on frequent travel. The size of some of these houses make that to be less than reasonable.
I also noted that many people who build or contract to build tiny houses end up selling within a couple of years, when reality sets in or circumstances change. Few people who can stick to the idea on a really long term bases.
So because of those factors, I find THOW to be nothing more than a novelty, that as it is will not sustain itself and will continue to be a temporary, transitional means of living. The smaller they are the less viable they are for long term living for MOST of us.
I think, that there should be a strong push to change planning codes for municipalities to accept small homes to be built in the 400-700 aq/ft range, seem to be ideal for a lot of people, so that when people decide to downsize, they will more likely, stay with it. And for those who would like to be more mobile, for the sake of somewhat more efficiency, they can just use more conventional RV. They are good enough to last for several years of extended use.
I see no point in being environmentally contious and drag a huge box around burning ungodly amounts of fuel to go from place to place.
Ok if you move once a year or two. But to live in the road…..?
Van, there are lot more than simple lead acid batteries that you can’t even drain more than 50% without damaging them and can weigh over 65 lbs each to choose from these days and some of them offer extremely high capacity in very small form factors but at a cost… A high end lithium 48v 180Ah (9.36 kwh 52v actual) can run over $9000 but means you can have 4 of them in something this size for enough power to run the hot water heater, an incinerating toilet, and not worry about the sun being out for weeks at a time…
That’s an extreme example but goes to show that you shouldn’t assume such options are low cost because solar can still range into the thousands for those needing the best possible options.
Like there’s a demonstration Tiny House in I believe NZ for Tesla that’s being towed by a Tesla car and not only solar but a Tesla power wall, which at the end of the day allows the house to recharge the car for the next day’s drive… You can be pretty sure that set up is multiple times higher priced than this one!
You’re typical camper and even Class B Van would also have less than half the capacity of the 100 gallon fresh water tank included in this model as well… It’s more normal to see a 9 to 15 gallon tank in something this size.
Really, 100 gallons is about 833 lbs! Even if it’s not filled to the top it’s still easily over 700 lbs… and the trailer has to support that weight on top of everything else!
The 4500 lbs this model is rated for is probably just the dry weight for this, so add a person or two and a full tank of water and you’ve already added over 1000 lbs… So that trailer has to be very well made to handle that, especially on single axle.
All while still being rigid enough to not worry about warping the Tiny House on top of the trailer chassis…
While the composting toilet can allow a single person to go 30 to 90 days before needing to dump it… So you’re more likely to run out of food long before you need to worry about water and other supply runs with this model…
As for the roof line… You’re right that Tiny Houses have a risk of being blown over because they’re not aerodynamic but you exaggerate how aerodynamic RV’s are… Most RV’s still have flat sides, most are only aerodynamic in the direction they normally get towed, and side winds will blow them over even easier because they’re usually so much lighter than a tiny house.
Most RV roofs are also pretty fragile with most cracking or having other issues within the first year because the entire frame can warp and doesn’t need to just have pressure on the roof line… This vs some Tiny House roofs that are rated for over 50 years and are so rigid that they can literally have a car parked on top of them or more than a couple of feet of snow load…
Camper trailers can be framed by as little as 1×1 studs… But to allow for 3″ to 4″ of insulation you’d need more like 2×4 for the walls and 2×6 for the roof and floor for a Tiny House, the 3″ is for the walls for R-21 and the roof and floor are 4″ for R-28, and those can be far stronger if they use metal framing and this isn’t counting the usual inclusion of hurricane tie clips and other framing re-enforcements that are normally done because most Tiny Houses are actually over built…
There’s also the effect of using spray foam insulation as it basically glues the structure together and makes it stronger and more rigid than the framing alone provides…
Many Tiny Houses have been rated for over 135 MPH winds… Some of the all metal framed ones have even been rated for over 200 MPH winds… Good luck getting a RV that can handle those kinds of winds…
What you say may have some truth if the roof had a large overhang but most don’t, and so there’s not much for the wind to really grab on to that would threaten the integrity of the roof line.
It’s more a concern for those that have permanent outdoor porches/decks…
But you don’t have to take my word for any of this as there’s also the simple fact that we can find many people that have towed their tiny homes for literally thousands of miles all over the country, more than a few have racked up over 25,000 miles and still have no issues.
So aside from having not being great for gas mileage, they seem to handle high winds with aplomb… Though, the gas mileage isn’t quite terrible, especially for these smaller models because they present a much smaller profile into the wind and being shorter also means more of the tow vehicle stays in front of it and not so much sticking out above it for the wind to directly hit…
Also, as a general note, not all Tiny Houses lack aerodynamics… Some have wedged shapes so they cut into the wind when towed… Some have bays windows or similar structure so the part being pushed into the wind is actually curved… Some have curved roofs that allows most of the wind to just flow over them… Some have the roof slanted to the front and back so it allows most of the wind to flow over it…
So not all are literally bricks… Besides, some trailers are literally shaped like bricks anyway… Like horse trailers, box trailers, etc. and there isn’t really a issue towing them either…
It’s more a issue of weight with Tiny Houses as they tend to be very heavy and trucks capable of towing that weight tend to not be as fuel efficient as lighter trucks…
So you are right that the waste in gas, though not as big as you’re thinking, is counter to the point of being environmentally conscious but the cost of moving can be still small compared to the normal carbon footprint of every day life in the usual inefficient homes we normally live in…
Like, you may only tow for a few hours but in winter you’d need to heat your home for possibly months at a time and that adds up to a lot more energy usage in total if you’re wasting energy because your home is too inefficient.
You’d have to tow the house virtually a few times every week to compete with that… On average people are spending well over 80 million BTUs per year on their home, and over 900 kWh per month on electricity…
Multiply that by how many average households there are and you can see why this THOW can still makes sense even if you tow it a lot… Especially, if the owner normally lives in a house that uses more than the average per year as the alternative…
Oh, on the costs…
No, you’re way off…
First, you’re forgetting just the trailer made custom trailer this is on cost a few thousand alone… Spray Foam insulation in box stores is typically only for filling in gaps and doesn’t include the machinery normally required, which can fill a truck or van and require a generator to run if you don’t have high amp service on the work site. The chemicals also have to be properly mixed and done within ideal temperature and humidity otherwise it’ll be a bad install and you’d have to rip it all out and try again, which can add a lot to the costs… Thus many business hire it out rather than do it themselves as then they can be insured and be sure it gets done right every time but often means there’s a set price to the insulation install…
To have a typical Tiny House spray foamed, it’s normally near $1800 and that’s for 1-2 inches… But this has 3 to 4 inches, so even though smaller than most Tiny Houses it’s still a fair bit of insulation they installed.
So, even if they did it themselves and not contracted it out then it’s likely still around a $900, assuming they owned the equipment and didn’t have to rent it or still paying it off…
There’s also the reality of doing construction in that there are always cost overruns, you will almost never use an exact amount of materials for a given build. There’s always some waste that has to be accounted for in the final total costs…
Take the metal roofing… It may cost as little as $2 per sq ft of roofing material but you can expect an approximate waste factors of 5-7% at the lower end up to 20% plus at the higher end (depending on the complexity of the roof in question).
Add to this waste factor details like drip edges, gable edges, ridge caps, valleys, fasteners, pipe flashings, freight, sales tax, crating and handling charges, and other possible options PLUS the labor to install the metal roof and it’s quite easy for that $2 a square foot roof to cost $5-10 a square foot for the finished project and that’s assuming the build goes mostly as expected.
It would be nice if everything could be done always at the bare minimum cost but that’s not very realistic unfortunately.
While a group of 4 lithium deep cycle batteries can run you about $900 each… Lead Acid would be significantly cheaper but at over twice the weight with 6V units being easily over 65-95 lbs each, means you’d have to add the cost of a very strong storage box for them that will also have to be well ventilated and be capable of handling any possible spillage… Even then, you’re looking at closer to $5000 for the whole setup…
Let’s also not exaggerate the retail vs business costs difference… We’re not talking about a company that’s mass producing a product. Custom builders deal with near retail costs because it’s all custom and they can’t just stock everything the customer may possibly want… Many times items are ordered on a per customer basis, which means they don’t get much of a discount if they’re only ordering a few at a time…
This is why up to now custom builders usually only catered to the rich because that’s the only way it made sense financially and the rest of us had to make due with mass produced cookie cutter, one size fits all, products.
Mass production makes things more affordable but they also take away choice and individuality of those products.
This is one of the reasons why people are so interested in things like 3D printers because they hold the potential to allow customization at affordable prices but that technology is still in its infancy and going smaller only saves so much on costs…
It doesn’t help that prices of materials keep going up… Real wood flooring, for example, is now very expensive, especially if you get your wood from imports from Canada as we now have a tariff on that which adds 3% to the total cost of wood framed construction.
There are things they can save on costs, especially if they’re equipped to use raw materials… But this doesn’t change that in some places the costs can be multiple times different, depending on factors like whether it can be locally sourced or needs to be imported, and how down the chain you are from the source of the materials.
Along with how it varies per state as some hit builders with additional costs on top of normal building permits… Then there’s insurance coverage, getting inspected, and things like getting an RVIA certification is something they have to pay for!
Along with paying rent for the building site, tool costs and maintenance, paying for their workers health coverage, business insurance fees, and finally for their labor… Not to mention normal business costs for marketing, accounting, paying taxes… All before they even see a glimmer of a profit, which needs to be high enough to justify even being in business and for them to have the slightest hope of ever being able to grow the business…
Many business operate within just 3% profit margin, which doesn’t give them much of a safety net in case they ever face unexpected costs…
While other factors includes the fact they used steel framing with this THOW, which costs more than wood framing… Along with all the copper fixtures, which cost more than steel fixtures… If the customer had ordered granite or quartz counter tops instead of wood, it would also have cost more…
Even regular low E windows with tempered glass usually run around $400 each, with 4 in this THOW, not counting the custom door with glass insert window, which also would cost a couple of hundred as well… But, if the windows are the high end custom double to triple pane, gas filled, with solar/heat reflective film then the prices jumps to thousand each and can typically account for over $8000 of the total price of the house.
Really, it’s not anywhere as cheap as you think to run these custom builder businesses. For example, Upper Valley Tiny Homes fairly recently went out of business and they were previously doing well making up to 9 homes a month but one mistake quickly snowballed and forced them out of business… Joining more than a dozen other companies over the last few years that didn’t make it.
Really, if it was easy then everybody would be doing it and there would be so much competition that they would all be low priced…
While let’s ignore the other companies that would charge up to double this price for anything comparable… The Vardos/cottage style custom built camper recently posted about here is priced a bit higher than this THOW but doesn’t even have a full bathroom, just a porta potti under a bench, and no significant off-grid features as well…
And there’s certainly higher premium features they could have included…
Just to give an idea of how high things can go, one of the highest priced 5.1 stereo systems available is priced at $5 million! The mid range highest is still $450,000! While custom built RV’s typically run into the millions… Ditto with custom built yachts… Custom built cars can run over $500,000 on up into the millions… Custom big homes can go into the tens on up into the hundreds of millions…
So the scale of build quality and material costs can go a lot higher than they have so far in most Tiny Houses…
While going too low starts making them comparable to tents on wheels, unless you cheat by using used and old materials that you can get for next to nothing and do most of the work yourself but not everyone can do that, reclaimed materials are often not ideal and require a lot of compromises, and it’s harder to be able to live in one legally as DIY usually can’t get certified, etc.
So it can be just as bad arguing for prices to be too low as for them to be too high, while what’s realistic may not be as low as some may think, especially if they want certain things to be included but aren’t willing to do it themselves or take the time to find reclaimable materials and other cost reducers that are more feasible than expecting a custom builder to be able to do things for basically for free, just because someone may think it should cost less than it actually is to do…
Oh, and for $36000, I think that a couple of actual wall cabinets could have been included instead of the over use of cheap floating shelves that has very little practical use aside for a few in the galley area. Those are good enough to give you the illusion that you get something for the money, but really present very little value outside of breaking up the flatness of the walls. Off load the selves every time you move the trailer? We tend to fill any flat surface around us, so based on that, with the amount of shelves, you’d have a lot of packing to do. So again, not very practical for travelling and not sufficient for stationary living. Sorry, but as cute and nice looking it is, it’s just not ideal on so many levels.
My first thought was, that for someone like me, I work overseas and spend about 8-9 months away from here, would work, but without modifications, it would not.
It’s not the size, a 30′ boat has less space, though better designed storage.
There is so much that can be improved upon this unit. Looking at it as it is, will prompt you to look at it with critical eyes and come up with better solutions.
If nothing else, gives ideas, brings out thoughts and creativeness so in it self that is admirable about this micro whatever you want to call it.
Van, you seem to be too focused on how it looks now but it’s a custom built product… This is just how the present owner wanted it and you or anyone else is free to have it designed any other way they want and can probably still get it for around the same price because having it custom built is included in the pricing…
Though, you should know open shelving can have straps so you don’t necessarily need to take everything down and cabinets don’t ensure you won’t need to strap everything down anyway as cabinets won’t stop stuff from being knocked around inside of them and unless you have very good locks on them they can still get knocked open and have everything pour out…
You also have the risk that everything can be pressed against the door so the moment you open one after moving the THOW can find you with all the contents rushing out and possibly hitting you.
There’s also the question of headroom, as this doesn’t have a high roof it would mean those cabinets will cut into the living space much more than shelves do, especially when you open them and have the doors sticking out.
While you may not get any more storage out of them because you’d essentially just be trading cabinets for the shelving, which is basically just enclosing them, but cabinets also break up the storage space between the cabinets but the shelves can be continuous all around to make use of all the space.
Like, if you wanted to store a broom or other long pole item on that upper shelf… That would be easy with this set up but virtually impossible with a cabinet setup, unless you put it on top of the cabinet but that’s the same as leaving it on the shelf in the first place.
While, even if you have to pack things before each move at least packed away you can be sure even glassware won’t get smashed, which you can’t be sure of with just cabinets and its nothing like opening a cabinet after a move and having a bunch of broken pieces of sharp glass shards pouring out towards you…
Sure, you can make sure to use non-breakables but that won’t prevent the other issues with using cabinets and would not be acceptable to people who insist on being able to take along breakables, like those who collect things like glass globes during their travels, for example, which they would also like to be able to see and not hide away when parked…
Thing to understand is that there are always trade offs and there’s really no such thing as a perfect way to do things. Some may be a little better than others but in most cases you’re just trading one pro for another con and vice versa… and thus you mustn’t confuse what you prefer with what everyone should be doing, especially when other people have different preferences…
While the thing about creativity is to realize there are many different ways to do things and it’s the diversity that allows us to be truly creative and be able to live how we want…
James D, you seem to throw out a lot of numbers that reflect brand new material at the very high end level that most people, regular working stiffs, would not pay for simply because of the super high cost. Example, your Lithium batteries. Yes, I am very much aware of the cost, I am also very much aware of the fact that you’ll find those in a very small amount of these tiny homes, so I think that it’s a mute point to mention for a 12 ft, “travel trailer” so for the sake of keeping it on this particular planet, AGM batteries would be more than sufficient, and it also have a better safety record than lithium batteries up to today.
I know, that battery technology is improving daily, but we always have e middle ground that keeps the technology advanced enough but the cost in the realm of the average person.
Not sure when you looked, but when I mentioned foam insulation from Home Depot, I was not talking about the canned void filler foam. They are selling a quite comprehensive kit for insulation purposes beyond just holes around pipes. Perhaps you can check it out next time you visit Home Depot.
Anyhow, there are many other points you’ve made that I would argue with and stay with my original points, which is based on my experiences and from carefully studied examples that can be found all over around us.
I’m also aware of the limitations of RVs, which I pointed out early on. I do believe, that they, by and large, built like crap, however certain design elements are specific to the purpose.
When I was talking about aerodynamics, I was talking about the frontal shape, which are, with the lack of ANY overhangs, far better than the traditional “house” style roofs even with a few inches of overhang.
I am aware of the slab sides of both, RVs and Tiny houses so I do know that it present lateral stability issues in high side winds in open areas. That is an issue, but not nearly as much as the flat front and the scooplike effect of the Tiny houses when it comes to fuel efficiency. We both agreed on that. Again, those are common sense observations since we don’t really have wind tunnel data for Netherlands these contraptions.
Aside from all this, we were originally discussing a 12 foot trailer, not 16-35 ft tiny houses with 13.5 ft height, so you went off the rail a bit in the amount of material needed to build something like this.
You said that a “custom” trailer can cost a couple of thousand dollars, that is exactly what I allocated for it in my rough estimation.
$2000 for the solar system is very real today, i had a 270 Watt System with 4 group 31 house bank and one group 27 starting battery in my sailboat I lived and cruised for 6 years. Pretty high end MPPT charge controller, marine grade heavy tinned copper wiring and all batteries AGM. We are talking about technology that is about 9 years older then what is today and the cost back then was considerably higher for all that. Served me well.
It would be hard for me to believe, that this 12 foot trailer would have a better system installed in it. So let’s try to keep it real.
The trailer is an interesting concept, and the simplicity of its design lend itself for home building for a reasonably skilled person with attention to details. As a builder, you have the opportunity to source your material from the best places at a high rate of savings.
BTW, Custom is Relative when it comes to a lot of things, including a trailer. I wish I know what was so special about this one that a simple $1200 off the shelf trailer couldn’t do, even with slight modification, if we talking about some reinforcements and tabs to secure walls. All that can be done easily and wouldn’t require big production. Again, not knowing what was “custom” about it, it’s hard to say. Understanding a bit about market, i can’t see anything so,special about it.
Your rebuttal drifted off into Tiny houses with 100 gallon tanks and such, I see no relevance for the purpose of the discussion that centred around the $36000 price tag.
There is a simple way to see what I’m talking about. Look at some of the high quality well built tiny homes that were self built by people who demonstrated high level of building skills, managed to source building material from sensible places and managed to design a smart looking home for themselves in the $20-30000 range, and compare some of the less than spectacular “professional” built houses, that cobbled together with high profits in mind, for $50-70000 range, then look at the gems that are costing higher than that. Then you will see why I insist, that $36000 is way unreasonable for this particular trailer.
Also, I was trying to find on their website where it stated that it was built to order. Seem to me that it was built to spec to sell to anyone interested in throwing money away.
You also mention built and material quality, do we really know the real quality of what’s in this trailer? What degree of difference can be had in a 2×4 pine stud or simple windows that this seem to be. How much pocket doors and simple entry door can cost? I am reasonable certain that the builder did not use anything that cost more then average.
One entry door, one pocket door and 4 windows. A few panel of raised seam metal roofing, ply wood probably AB quality some tar paper, some flooring, and one galley unit with some cabinetry and a small sink. None of those are anything special or warrant high prices.
I don’t presume that there would not be anyone who is so fund of the shelves, in such quantities, that they would forgo the need for a cabinet, but I do believe that a couple of them could have added to the functionality to the trailer to make it more liveable.
I would also have a very difficult time believing that a builder of anything will put so much effort into a business that is working with a 3% profit margin. That’s bad Juju, wouldn’t take long to fold. Especially for a custom builder who does not have the valume advantage in sourcing material at a good bulk rate. In order to,make money on anything custome, you need to provide the most of everything. High end unusual design that stands out, exotic high end rare material and acceptional craftsmanship that is more art then craft. None of that is visible in this trailer, regardless that it’s a neat little package as a base concept that need some improvement.
In closing, I really would like to see the length of the line of people front of the business of this builder, who is rushing in to plop down that amount of cash for that particular trailer, custom or not. We may never know. I wish them well, hope they find someone who has more then they can do with and absolutely have to have this thing.
Van, most people actually pay more… Even regular working stiffs will pay for things that will make their life easier and/or are things they value.
Your argument is basically that it can be done for less but that was never in dispute… What is in dispute is whether this product is priced as it should be for what it does include…
There are many things that are not always visible that contribute to what things can cost. Things like using metal framing will cost more than wood framing and you would never know this unless you were told or tore open the walls to see how they were assembled.
Not everything of value has to be obvious and easy to see…
Nor are things all equivalent, like your home depot example isn’t equivalent to high end spray foam insulation… Home Depot’s spray foam is a cheaper product that only goes up to about R-5.48 but professional grade spray foam goes up to R-7.1… Which is what is used in this Micro-House because that 3″ is providing and R-21 for the walls and R-28 for the roof…
So just because it looks like similar stuff doesn’t mean it’s the same thing!
There are also benefits like designing a structure to be lighter, which you can’t tell by just looking at something and guessing at what it is made up of…
Regardless, it doesn’t even matter if it can be done for less if that’s not how it was done and the customer didn’t want what less would have meant as the trade off…
Sure, with a simple camper that you won’t need to take out in the middle of a cold winter or blistering summer doesn’t even need to have good insulation.
But this product was designed to have a high level of insulation… Like the lithium example, such high insulation is rare but if that’s what the customer wanted then that is what they got and it would be priced accordingly…
Similarly, your AGM is sufficient statement only applies if the owner of this thought the same or not… You seem to dismiss too readily that AGM batteries weigh up to 4 times more than lithium batteries and when you can only safely discharge them to about 50% versus 100% for lithium that translates to a massive difference in capacity and ability for the owner to be able to tow this around as it would be adding hundreds of pounds to go with AGM and that’s on top of the other things that we can be sure of like the 100 gallon water tank, which I pointed out can hold 700-800 lbs of water and all of that on top of the weight of this micro-house…
Imagine, if the owner wished to be able to tow this with a regular vehicle that wouldn’t need to be a gas guzzler so they can also use it for their daily driver…
Most below say a 1/2 ton truck offer very limited towing capacity and that drops even lower if you have to go off-road, as is often the case when someone wants to enjoy nature and boondock/camp off-grid…
Between AGM batteries and the 100 gallons of water you have well over 1000 lbs on top of the weight of the micro-house…
Choosing lithium can also last longer than lead acid and can support higher loads…
A 4 lithium battery system can easily hold enough energy to power everything for days even with no solar panels… You can’t say the same for AGM batteries unless the owner’s needs are very limited, especially if the solar is only for allowing extended runs and are not really sufficient for all of the owners needs.
This small of a size structure means it can’t have that many panels on the roof and that limits how much solar power it can get without placing additional panels on the ground around it, which doesn’t seem the case as then there would be a port on the exterior to attach them and would mean more work for the owner…
So the owner would be relying heavily on the stored energy in the batteries…
You’re basically making the assumption that the owner would want to opt for lesser features just to save cost but what is that worth if it means they can’t really do everything they may want to do because of that trade off?
If the solar can’t keep up, then why limit oneself to limited capacity batteries if one wants to spend any significant amount of time off-grid?
If the owner only wanted to do something occasionally with this then why get the heavy amount of insulation for it that allows it to be used all seasons?
With AGM you have to be sure not to drain it past 50% or you’ll damage them… Do you think the owner wants to be monitoring the conditions of the batteries or enjoying the area around wherever they park this thing?
But even if they went with AGM rather than lithium doesn’t mean it would be all that much cheaper… 4 batteries will still cost hundreds each, especially if they’re high capacity… The much heavier weight would have to be accounted for with needing a much stronger storage for them, which also has to be rated for safely storing them, but still providing easy access to do maintenance on them and keep them vented, but in a heavily insulated structure this means they may be required to be sealed off from the interior and all of that can add to the cost of installing such a system beyond just the cost of the batteries.
Regardless, it doesn’t change all the similar considerations for the rest of the micro-house where the owner could have decided on premium features because they directly addressed the intended use of this product.
Really, over 50% of the population regularly spend more than this on things like RV’s, Cars, traveling, boating, etc. and most of those things won’t last as long as this will…
People in particular will spend more on things they know will last… Think about it, would you buy, for an analogy, a tool that may only be good for one job simply because it costs less versus getting a more expensive tool that may last you a lifetime?
Sure, if you only needed it for one job and nothing else then you could say that then makes more sense, but not everyone is going to use a tool for just one job and the same goes for other products.
Like why get a Mini-Split vs a cheaper AC unit? Because the Mini-Split is more energy efficient and will save you more in the long run and can also function as a heater… Paying more can easily end up costing you less in the long run, as well as allow you to have options you may not otherwise be able to have…
Among many other examples why people can easily justify spending more even if they have to sacrifice in order to do it.
Besides, you seem to be missing the very simple fact this is a custom product and it was built to what the customer wanted to have delivered to them!
The builder even posted here and flat out stated they can build something for less cost, it just wouldn’t offer what this model has, which again their client requested!
It would only cost that much for you if you wanted the exact same thing delivered…
So if you want to get something similar but not with the same premium components and features then they can probably make it for you at the price you would find acceptable… That’s how custom building works!
You make a list of requests, they tell you how much it will cost to build and you either accept, shop around, or reduce your list of request until they come back with a number you do accept…
Just because someone else settled on a higher price than you would want means nothing except that someone else wanted a different list of things and had a different set of priorities than you and that’s normal because we’re all different, even if money was no option people would still choose different things for different reasons…
So lets be clear that while you may think you’re criticizing the builder for making something you think most people would not want for the price, but the simple fact of the matter is this IS what someone wanted and thus you’re essentially criticizing the owner for the choices they made!
This isn’t a product that was mass produced and being sold on a lot where you have to either take it or leave it… It’s a custom made product that was commissioned to be made and reflects what the owner wanted… Nothing more and nothing less!
I would like to see the bathroom and find out what kind of toilet it has. Very nice job in a small space. Really inviting. Not sure about the price, but tiny houses do seem to be getting much more expensive.
wow
I wished more people would read this set of comments.
There has been more info talked about here. Than in the last couple of months.
This is the cutest thing I’ve seen lately, but I think I could have built it for under $8,000, including the trailer, and a Yeti solar system from Goal Zero for between $2500 and $3500 would run everything from lights to frig to computer. So as adorable and well built as it is, it is very overpriced.
I like the idea of taking out the back window and extending the outside cupboard to create an interior closet. And some kind of an overhead lofting for storage would make a big difference; maybe paced out slats or something. I currently live in 400 sq ft and use an electrical plug-in burner and have no problems preparing any food that can be cooked in a pot or pan. The primary complaint here seems to be the price, but outside of money, this is a REALLY nice build; very attractive and inviting for such a small space. I’d gladly go traveling with this THOW. Everything is there, plus great looks.
Hi. I really like this. I love the little porch in the front with the little steps too. Perfect for 1 person who has to live on the road.
Small, but cute. Also overpriced. ( for me). 😔
A mere $36000… for this shoe-box. They can keep it! LOL
An escalade I have cost $60,000 the price for this tiny home $36,000 is VERY reasonable.. and seriously considering having one built for myself.
Its all you need..
anyone complaining about cost is foolish try installing solar, battery backups, appliances, plumping , bath
Electrical And fixtures see how fast it
Reaches $8,000 – $10,000 plus incosts before one even builds the structure then add labor (that means make a living to feed himself and family) the list can go on
Great job to the builder ignore the professional complainers 👍
Man. This guy is getting hammered on that price point. haha… The most drama I have personally seen in the comment sections on this site yet! $25,000? Maybe. $36K? That’s pretty steep for something that small. For that I better get some top notch engineering and layout/design. No offense, but t’s a relatively basic design. Perhaps a bed lift so you can have more a living room sitting area under the bed or just a seating area that converts to a bed. Just seems like a couple of details could have been thought out a little bit more and the space would be just a little bit more functional. But that’s just me being nitpicky, really. As it exists, it really is all you need.
I do LOVE that it is smaller. Maybe I’m wrong but I seem to have noticed a move in the direction of larger tiny homes lately. My evolution has taken me in the opposite direction. I am more interested in seeing how much smaller I can go while still maintaining functionality and comfort. I lived in a 19ft. RV full-time for 1.5 years until this past January (when I bought a small 895 sq. ft. shotgun house in New Orleans) where the living space was probably about 11 to 12ft long. It was laid out great. I did not mind the lack of additional living area because the layout was so smart and functional, everything worked perfectly. I had a nice kitchen, fridge, microwave, two burner propane stove, 4-person dinette that converted to a full-bed, a spare almost love-seat. You could manage to squeeze two people side by side on it. It had a wet bath with flushable toilet, shower, sink, medicine cabinet, ceiling fan/vent. Lots of storage. It even had a hanging wardrobe closet where I fit several suits, shirts, pants, dress shoes. I love the concept of going even smaller to this 12ft. range houses. Makes it much easier to move around, more mobility. I personally like that. I think this house looks great. Just a couple of details I would personally modify and I think the price-point needs some tweaking. But hey, what do I know. If people are paying that price, more power to you!
I love this house and would buy it in a heartbeat if I was in the market, but I want to be the first to know if she gets $36,000 for it, and from what planet the buyers came.
Just reading my comment from 2018, and it was a little harsh. Really sorry. I still love this tiny house, and I still think it is the epitome of comfortable use of space. It’s lovely and inviting and though at the time the price seemed steep, after reading all of James’s great comments based on all his thorough research, I can see how, even then, the price was reasonable. It’s still one of my favorite tiny houses. It’s very well built and beautifully styled.
This is a nice compact trailer/tiny home. I checked their site and still have a few questions. Day bed–is that a twin or full size? I tried to visually compute the kitchen counter size and could not tell if that area is 9 feet or less. I had to look close to see the two drawers under the bed as they blended so well. No grey water tank listed. Does that mean the shower drains directly outside? I did not see the solar panels on the roof. Guess that photo was missed. The 30×30 shower must be custom made. I thought the standard was 32×32 or 36×36 and larger sizes available. Why was 4 inches of insulation used in the floor? Perhaps the trailer will be used in a cooler area where a lot of wind blows underneath. Would reducing the insulation in floor be cost effective if they used a floor heat system?
Bed size isn’t stated anywhere but you can check out youtube video “Could You Live In This Tiny House? – Pickler & Ben” They’re hosts on a show on CMT and they toured it with someone who gave the details. While 3 of them were in it, they stated it’s a “full size bed”… and the guy laid down on it for a visual for comparison and he comments on how it felt, among the impressions they gave during the tour…